From: Doug Lute
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003
To: c22@catalinadirect.com
Subject: Re: archives? soft foredeck
I've been working on a soft foredeck, a total replacement of the plywood
core from the forward chain plate up to nearly the stem. I left the boat on
the trailer, but the idea of flipping it is really interesting. I have
taken lots of digital pictures, and when we've gotten the boat on the water
I should have time to put them and a decent write-up on the web. Here's my
condensed version - and lots of kudos to Kemosabe and others for ideas and
encouragement.
Our foredeck was really soft - pounding on it revealed hollow sounds all
the way back to nearly the forward most chain plate, on both sides. Now, the
foredeck is a sandwich of (deck) fiberglass, (middle) plywood, and (inside)
a fiberglass liner. The wood was rotted so badly that the liner was mostly
separated from the wood layer. The water had gotten in where the
stanchions were bolted through - nothing had been re-bedded for many years.
Inside the vee-berth, using a 4-inch angle grinder with a cut-off wheel, I
made some cuts through the liner: first one from middle of the hatch to
the little compartment at the forward point of the vee-berth. Second from
left to right at the forward point of the vee-berth; third and forth from
the aft corners of the hatch to a point near the forward chain plates. This
cut the liner into left and right pieces (lots of dust! wear a
mast/goggles). My liner dropped right out.
Next, I used a wire brush on that angle grinder to remove the remaining
wood from the liner and underside the deck. The wood was in horrible shape
- all layers of the plywood were completely separated. Once I got this
cleaned up, I started cutting the new core. I used "regular" 1/4-inch
plywood from the hardware store. I cut this into three pieces, because a
single piece just wouldn't make it into the vee-berth. I made a rough
triangle for the forward section, from the edge of the hatch forward, then
left and right sections cut to fit around the curve of the cabin trunk and
hatch.
Now, here's where you get to make some decisions. I've heard of people
using 3M's 5200 to adhere the wood to the deck, but I ended up using
epoxy. I am using the West system with a slow hardener, and opted for
"milled fiber" as a filler. I'll end up using two (2) gallons of resin,
and about 8 pounds of filler (maybe this sounds like a lot? dunno, I'm new
at this).
So, after cutting the wood, I cut some shallow grooves in the triangle
piece, on the "up" side to face the deck. I cut them from back to front,
to help the plywood bend left and right and take the shape of the hull. I
just used a hand saw. After that, I mixed up some epoxy resin and hardener
(no filler) and roller-brushed it onto the wood. Maybe it'll help seal the
edges, maybe not, but I figured it's worth a shot.
Kemosabe suggested cutting some 2x4s as props, cut to length to brace the
plywood against the deck when the wood goes up - I did this, and it was
even better when I added some cheap bottle jacks and shims. The lengths
are around 22-24 inches.
Next, ready to lay up the wood. I mixed the epoxy to near the consistency
of peanut butter - it was a bit thinner than that, but didn't run too
much. Slapped it onto the grooved side of the triangle piece, evened it
out, and eventually got it propped against the inside of the deck. Bottle
jacks helped press it harder, and epoxy squeezed out along all the edges
and through the stanchion screw-holes on the topside (this is good). I'd
planned to put some cement blocks or bags of sand on the deck, but my bad
back didn't permit this. Turned out fine anyway.
The hardener instructions say it'll cure in less than a day, but I let it
go until next weekend. At this point, I've only had decent weather enough
to do that triangle piece and the left side, but after I do the right side
I'll follow much the same process to lay up both sides of the old liner.
Now, I'm no expert - I didn't start out knowing anything about epoxy resin
or boat repair. But my wife and I both stood on the left/forward side of
the foredeck over the weekend and it's really solid, so I guess it's
working :). Oh yeah, advantage: if you cut out a disc of wood under where
the stanchions or other through-decks will be, you can lay up fiberglass in
those places and have a through-deck that goes through only glass, not
wood, and won't be nearly as susceptible to rot.
Here's the tab:
- Epoxy resin/hardener. Got this from a local sailboat shop. $68/gallon for
resin $18 for enough hardener for the resin. 2 gallons of resin x $86 = $172
for resin/hardener
- Filler. Got this from www.aircraftspruce.com, part no: 01-14780.
$3.25/pound, used 2 pounds so far, bought 8. $26 + shipping
- Acetone - not sure this was necessary, probably could use rubbing
alcohol as a cleaner. $8/gallon, 1 gallon at wal-mart.
- Plywood. Local hardware store.
2 sheets of 4x8 @ 1/4". I think these were $11 apiece.
- Time. I dunno, I screwed around a lot, not knowing what I was doing.
Figure a good 25-30 hours of labor by the time I'm done, less if you don't
have 4 thumbs :).
- Misc - I broke some cut-off wheels ($4), accidentally went through the
deck in one place with the angle grinder ($20 for the gel coat kit - minor
oops).
Total - I guess around $250. My time is probably worth something, but I
chalked it up to learning and confidence-building. FYI, the local sailboat
shop not only wouldn't consider doing the job, but informed me it would be
at least several thousand $$$ - more than we paid for the boat.
After the dust settles, I'll probably use a little teak trim or something
if I need to hide the cuts. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't need to
make that long cut in the liner from the hatch to the stem - the liner
would have dropped right out. That depends on how bad the wood is. Oh well.
Forgive if the explanation sounds confusing - I'm more than willing to talk
offline by email or phone, and when time permits I'll hopefully have a
step-by-step recount, complete with pictures.
--Doug and Susie Lute
"Kite", #2281 Oxford, Ohio
From: Kilpatrick, Mike
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003
To: c22@catalinadirect.com
Subject: Re: archives? soft foredeck
Doug,
Nice work and great description.
I've done this a time or two, most recently with a J24 and will add these
comments. When propping up from the underside with 2x4's, closet rods, etc.,
don't apply so much force that you bow the deck above or force all the epoxy
out. It's not like clamping wood together when gluing. The epoxy, when mixed
with adhesive filler, is super-strong and where it fills the notches in the
new plywood, makes things even stronger - so don't force it all out. In fact,
use it for gap-filling.
Also, we cut pieces of 1/8" laminate slightly larger than the new plywood
sections (as the laminate is somewhat flexible and would bend to follow the
curvature of the cabin ceiling) and put those pieces between the new plywood
and the 2x4 props, or wedges. We put black plastic (trash bags) between the
laminate and plywood so we didn't wind up with the laminate stuck to the new
plywood.
A final comment, we actually used Klegicell instead of plywood because it has
a little porosity and absorbs a little of the epoxy, making everything even
stronger.
Mike Kilpatrick
Lake Travis, TX
'81 C22 fin keel
'85 Capri 22